cera F vs Toko HelX

[32 degrees]

Ok, some UNbiased answers.

Who is faster... cera F or Toko HelX ?

Let's say 34-35 degrees (1 deg C) and humid (95%).
Old transformed groomed snow.

JK

Bradlee's gonna say Toko, Jay's gonna say Cerax, Potter's gonna say Pam
cooking spray, Tegeder is gonna say cera F is my guess.

No answers from sponsored skiers allowed - too biased. ;)

[Mitch Collinsworth]

Post by 32 degrees
Ok, some UNbiased answers.
Who is faster... cera F or Toko HelX ?
Let's say 34-35 degrees (1 deg C) and humid (95%).
Old transformed groomed snow.

You know, when those waxes are working, your skis are so blindingly
fast that it becomes more a question of whether you can keep up with
them than which wax is faster.

My question, at least partially related to yours is, what's the
difference between HelX and good old Streamline? This one at least
has a chance of getting a useful answer. :-)

-Mitch

[32 degrees]

from what I've read the difference is in the way that the molecule is built.
With Helx the hydrocarbon chain has been made in a "helix" or spiral (DNA
type) pattern... rather than "straight" chain (streamline).
By doing this they can somehow pack in more fluorine atoms making the entire
molecules more hydrophobic.
More hydrophobic = more speed on wet snow.
JK

[Rob Bradlee]

Post by Mitch Collinsworth
My question, at least partially related to yours is, what's the
difference between HelX and good old Streamline? This one at least
has a chance of getting a useful answer. :-)

Here's a biased answer :>
Streamline (now Jetstream) and Helx are both fluorocarbon waxes. The
difference is in the structure of the molecules. In the traditional
fluorocarbon waxes like Jetstream you have straight molecular chains of
carbon atoms with fluorine atoms attached to them. In Helx the
molecule has a helical shape. The idea with this is that you have more
fluorine molecule exposed on the the running surface of the ski. The
analogy that we use is to hold a straight piece of rope (Jetstream)
then wrap the rope around a finger (Helx). The rope around the finger
makes a wider mark when pressed against something.

Disclaimers: 1) I last took a chemistry class in 1974 and only got a
B-. 2) I work for Toko.

The proof of the pudding is in the tasting. Try some Helx on a really
wet day. I think you'll be sold on its value.

Rob Bradlee
Toko Tech Team

[x***@yahoo.com]

Post by Mitch Collinsworth
My question, at least partially related to yours is, what's the
difference between HelX and good old Streamline? This one at least
has a chance of getting a useful answer. :-)

They're both great products, and as with any wax, they have certain
snow conditions which are more applicable to one or the other. The one
thing you CAN say, however, is that Helx has a definite advantage in
quick application, so you can toss it on the ski just before a race a
little easier. You're always going to get your Swix v. Toko arguments,
but there's not much arguing as to which is easier/quicker to apply.
Mark

[Trukweaz]

ok here is my biased answer to Mitch. Although I am sure that Helx runs well in
the right conitions. I would bet my life I could apply the new Swix FC1 Turbo
in a shorter period of time before a race. As there is no drying time as with
Helx. It is a sintered block and can be crayoned on, corked in and brushed out
in a few minutes. I know, and i think Rob will vouch for this, that the Helx
has to be VERY dry before you buff it, as the same is true with the new FC08L
Liquid Cera F from Swix. The FC01S runs VERY well in a huge temperature range
and is by far my favorite Swix Cera F of all time.
Disclaimer: I work for Swix and I race against Rob. Happy New Year.

[Mitch Collinsworth]

Post by x***@yahoo.com

Post by Mitch Collinsworth
My question, at least partially related to yours is, what's the
difference between HelX and good old Streamline? This one at least
has a chance of getting a useful answer. :-)

They're both great products, and as with any wax, they have certain
snow conditions which are more applicable to one or the other. The one
thing you CAN say, however, is that Helx has a definite advantage in
quick application, so you can toss it on the ski just before a race a
little easier. You're always going to get your Swix v. Toko arguments,
but there's not much arguing as to which is easier/quicker to apply.

Yes, that's one of the things I always liked about Streamline. It
had the advantage that I could toss it on my skis just before a
race if I thought it was called for. Rub it on, cork it in!

-Mitch

[Rob Bradlee]

Post by Mitch Collinsworth
Yes, that's one of the things I always liked about Streamline. It
had the advantage that I could toss it on my skis just before a
race if I thought it was called for. Rub it on, cork it in!

You can still do this with Jetstream block and I recommend it. We did
this for the entire Massachusetts team (40 boys and girls) at the NE J2
(age 14,15) Festival last year. Rub it on, cork it in, brush it out
(dedicated brush), polish with polishing pad. Very economical too. We
used one block to do the whole team twice (80 wax jobs - some classic,
most skate).

Rob Bradlee
Toko Tech Team

[Rob Bradlee]

Yes, the Helx must be dry.
For those in a hurry, we recommend using a rotocork. Using a rotocork
you can spray on, rotocork, buff. Voila.

Sounds like there are quite a few pure fluoro products to choose from.

See you on the trails, Kurt!

Rob

Post by Trukweaz
ok here is my biased answer to Mitch. Although I am sure that Helx
runs well in
the right conitions. I would bet my life I could apply the new Swix
FC1 Turbo
in a shorter period of time before a race. As there is no drying time
as with
Helx. It is a sintered block and can be crayoned on, corked in and
brushed out
in a few minutes. I know, and i think Rob will vouch for this, that
the Helx
has to be VERY dry before you buff it, as the same is true with the
new FC08L
Liquid Cera F from Swix. The FC01S runs VERY well in a huge
temperature range
and is by far my favorite Swix Cera F of all time.
Disclaimer: I work for Swix and I race against Rob. Happy New Year.

=====
Rob Bradlee
Java, C++, Perl, XML, OOAD, Linux, and Unix Training

[Bjorn A. Payne Diaz]

Since I'm sponsored by Pam Cooking LTD, my opinion may be
opinionated...

Cerax was some strange stuff. It could work very well one day, and then
two days later, after the high schoolers have turned the trail into
boiler plate, it would be slow. (How can anything be slow on boiler
plate?) Or you'd by flying along with screaming skis, hit a 5 ft of
windblown snow, and the skis would slow to the point of almost taking
you down. When it was fast, it was very fast. When it was slow, I
couldn't figure out why. (E.g., wind blown snow on one day may be a
problem, but windblown snow on another day was just fine. One guys skis
would be fine, another's would be slow.)

From my Cerax days, I like the idea of liquids, in that I always worry

about cooking my skis with pure fluoro apps. You can either dump on the
wax ($$), or use sparingly and regrind (more $$). But I don't think the
wax techs are confident yet that the liquid fluoros will last 30-50 km.
Maybe opinions will change as these products are on the market longer.
Also, I bet that the liquid fluoros will last longer than corking in
powders.

If you're trying to choose a pure fluoro for old, warm snow, that's an
easy snow condition (for pure flouros). When the snow is new or a bit
colder is when I think there should be noticable differences between
brands. Now this opinion is not supported by testing, just an
opinion...on the internet...according to someone said so.

Jay Wenner

[Mitch Collinsworth]

Post by Bjorn A. Payne Diaz
Cerax was some strange stuff. It could work very well one day, and then
two days later, after the high schoolers have turned the trail into
boiler plate, it would be slow. (How can anything be slow on boiler

The one I could never figure out was Maxiglide Speed Powder. It claimed
to be a cheap alternative to fluoro powders and some folks swore it
worked great. It was cheap so I bought a can but every time I tried it
it was slow, for me. Maybe I used too much or too little or I put it
on wrong. Dunno, never figured it out.

Post by Bjorn A. Payne Diaz
Also, I bet that the liquid fluoros will last longer than corking in
powders.

I've never heard anyone claim corking in powders to be good for long
distances. It was recommended for short races when the snow is not
highly abrasive and for that it worked well and avoided the conundrum
about how to get it off the skis afterwards.

-Mitch